[cut-team] cut-team Digest, Vol 13, Issue 5: Answers & Questions

Fri Sep 2 04:07:33 UTC 2011

A friendly hello to all list members :)

I just joined the list some weeks ago, so I'm a 'newbie' here... some ways... 

but I've been 'constantly using [debian] testing' on two machines for more than 1 1/2 years now, and it oftenly was more about 'annoying' than of 'enjoying'...  so I find the arise of a project that works on some improvements for 'cut'it very interesting. 

Anyway, despite looking through the ml's archive, I do not fully understand the project's goals ... so it would be very friendly if someone here could give me a brief overview on the goals of the CUT project - and, if there already is one, the roadmap? 
(Are volunteers welcome?)

Regarding the proposals & comments of Henry Jensen:

I disagree with your proposals and statements in several concerns:

(theory):
Afaik: CUT is an abbreviation of 'Constantly Using Testing', whereas 'constantly' does not mean 'in (release) cycles'--  and 'testing' means a well defined (advanced) state in Debian distribution development progress - and not 'bleeding edge'. 

(practice):
- There are a bunch of Debian -based distros out there ... While I try to understand your concerns, I believe your demands are met best by *buntu or LMDE (linux mint, Debian edition). Eventually take a closer look at crunchbang (great stuff!) and Mepis /antiX, but those are distributions primarily for single PC /Desktop users -> Debian itself isn't!

If you look for 'new versions' and 'smoothened edges'... I'll recommend OpenSuSE (you're German?! Ever heard of tumbleweed(=SuSE rolling release)?), Fedora & Mandriva (these three are *not* Debian -based, but will satisfy your requirements).

If Linux is a matter of choice ... and Debian still is GNU/Linux.. (: you don't *have to* push the 'update all' button :)... >>
Get informed, if you have to|want to|must'nt update package 'foo' and it's dependencies. Information is the source of choice. 
Moreover, have you read Keith Curtis' reply? ... It's all true (really:)! 

Imho Mr. Steigerwald's reflections are pretty agreeable: 
LMDE is a rolling release based on Debian testing. Crunchbang Linux was (before squeeze release) and will be again (release crunchbang waldorf), so is antiX (more?). (Sidux /Aptosid isn't, it'base is sid=Debian unstable).
Wouldn't it be nice to get together ...for not doing similar work twice?? 

Best regards, Chris 

----- Original Nachricht ----
Von:     cut-team-request at lists.alioth.debian.org
An:      cut-team at lists.alioth.debian.org
Datum:   28.08.2011 14:00
Betreff: cut-team Digest, Vol 13, Issue 5

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. "Snapshot releases" or "rolling"? (Henry Jensen)
>    2. Re: "Snapshot releases" or "rolling"? (Keith Curtis)
>    3. Re: LMDE Progress (Martin Steigerwald)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:49:03 +0200
> From: Henry Jensen <hjensen at gmx.de>
> To: cut-team at lists.alioth.debian.org
> Subject: [cut-team] "Snapshot releases" or "rolling"?
> Message-ID: <20110827144903.8c35162a22e8125c8f0b3958 at gmx.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I use Debian for many years now, and I was thrilled when I first heard
> about CUT.
> 
> I would like to share some thoughts from my perspective as an Debian
> user. As you know, for a desktop distro stable becomes somewhat
> outdated after some time. I think this is the main reason why there is
> a high demand for CUT.
> 
> But a "rolling release" nature can be an disadvantage as well. Not 
> only that one have to download constantly new packages, which is time-
> and bandwith-consuming, there is also a constant risk of introducing
> new bugs with every package upgrade. Additionally one may wish to
> upgrade only when it's pretty safe to upgrade, i. e. when a new version
> has been tested and most rough edges are smoothened. For example, one
> uses foo 1.2.3, then foo 1.4.0 is released, but one may wish to upgrade
> not before foo 1.4.1. There is the dilemma. A true "rolling" distro
> introduces foo 1.4.0 as soon as it is released, which may be too early
> for many users. The "stable" distro has still foo 1.0.23, which may be
> too old for most users.
> 
> It is my experience that many users want current software, but not
> "bleeding edge".
> 
> So, where is the way out of this? It would be to release some kind of
> "frozen testing" or "minimal ans short term stable", let's say every 6
> month. Many other distros are using this 6-month-cycle and I think it
> work's pretty well.
> 
> You may ask, "why don't you use then one of this 6-month-cycle
> distros?". The answer is simple: They are not Debian. I like Debian
> because it is a good compromise between user friendliness and the KISS
> principle. I like Debian because it has a social contract and it
> follows the DFSG. And I like Debian because of its universality. If
> you look at other distros you see that they lack one or more of this
> points. For example they think their users are stupid, or they give a
> damn about free software and introduce proprietary software in their
> repo.
> 
> There is already a "rolling" Debian based distro called
> "aptosid" (formerly "sidux"), which follows the Debian path pretty
> well, but there is no comparable "short term stable" distro which I
> know of.
> 
> So, my proposal would be to do a "snapshot" of testing every 6 month,
> test and fix and run minimal QA procedures on it for one month or two,
> and then release it. This "short term stable" or "frozen testing"
> should be supported until the next release occurs. Of course, this would
> mean, that some kind of security procedures must be established and
> followed. To minimize the effort, upgrades from the current testing
> could be introduced if (and only if) security issues or severe bugs are
> fixed. The default policy should be too keep the packages at their
> versions as it was at the time of release.
> 
> I think this would meet many users needs.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Henry
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:23:03 -0700
> From: Keith Curtis <keithcu at gmail.com>
> To: cut-team at lists.alioth.debian.org
> Subject: Re: [cut-team] "Snapshot releases" or "rolling"?
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAHW+f2LGLoKHe+7JJqDyzn7Z=Ka8-Ya_rGAYQjbjg6LmFiOghg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi;
> 
> You can make snapshots from a rolling distribution and they are.
> 
> Even within rolling there are ways to minimize bandwidth, auto-revert if
> problems are found, give users choices, roll changes out over time (perhaps
> doubling the number of users each increment) to decrease risk, etc. It is
> early days in this effort.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> -Keith
> http://keithcu.com/
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 11:09:40 +0200
> From: Martin Steigerwald <Martin at lichtvoll.de>
> To: cut-team at lists.alioth.debian.org
> Subject: Re: [cut-team] LMDE Progress
> Message-ID: <201108281109.40567.Martin at lichtvoll.de>
> Content-Type: Text/Plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Am Donnerstag, 11. August 2011 schrieb Hadrien DUSSUEL:
> > I'll write here a small information report about LMDE, which has
> > enhancements similar to CUT:
> > Linux Mint Debian Edition, is, as the name imply, a new experimental
> > version based on Debian Testing (since October 2010). Since early july
> > 2011, they have created an "update pack" system, similar to the CUT
> > project. They snapshot the debian testing repository to an "incoming"
> > repository, seek for showstopper bugs during a limited amount of time
> > (between 1 week and 1 month), then update the "latest" repository with
> > the almost-bug-free packages. The tester use incoming and the end-user
> > use latest.
> > If some annoying-but-acceptable bugs are detected during the process,
> > they try to inform about workarounds in they shiny-new
> > mintupdate-debian which has an "update pack information" panel. For
> > example, in their last "Update Pack 2", they inform that some programs
> > have migrated to Gnome 3.0, so the themes might not be correct. When
> > Mesa or Xorg have problems with proprietary drivers, they try to
> > report the next update pack, etc...
> > 
> > I think CUT Team should discuss with those devs !
> > 
> > Have a nice day,
> 
> Maybe if teams like Debian Mint or Aptosid already actually already manage 
> to provide some of the services being intended here, it might be wise, so 
> try to integrate and kinda make it official.
> 
> Such as has been done with Debian Backports.
> 
> Bye,
> -- 
> Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
> GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA  B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
> 
> 
> 
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> End of cut-team Digest, Vol 13, Issue 5
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