On what is helpful and what is not [was: Re: Wifi]

[Zenaan Harkness]

Hi Ric (and thank you Ralph and all etc),

I refrain from posting this to debian-user - I take the genuine
suggestions from a few people whos opinions I value who suggested not
to, and thank you Ralph for steering us to o-t list.

Firstly, at the suggestion of Scott and myself, to myself, I canvassed
the opinions of a few people who I hoped (and was grateful to be
rewarded in this hope) would provide some sincere and considered
offlist feedback on an original email I at first intended to post to
debian-user ("our" mailing list). I did not take a lot of time to
scour debian-user to remind myself of the many other thoughtful people
on debian-user, and I was anxious to speak, but did not want to put
fut-in-mouth as I far too often have :/

To all interested in the now-proposed and waiting-for-votes (as I
understand it) Debian Policy 'upgrade' (I speak very facetiously when
I say upgrade),
which is on the way to formalising politeness to the point of actually
putting into this legislation (Debian official Policy) a politeness
and censorship regime for the debian mailing lists.

No! Let me rephrase since I am being inaccurate ... a post facto
(after the fact) cover-up for the censorship (sorry, 'moderation')
that has been going on for a long time on all our current mailing
lists (including yes, debian-user). And these lists are mostly
deceptively listed as "unmoderated"!
In fact they are very much censored (sorry, moderated), and clandestinely so!

Or we can call it a too-quick reaction (and inappropriate in some ways
response) to some very inappropriate 'terrorist' (I use the term very
loosely) emails to our debian community lists.

* Subscribers have been banned.

* Posts have been censored (sorry, moderated).

* Delays have been put in place (not censorship per-se, but in the family).

* All these things have happened clandestinely, ie clandestine
banning, clandestine censorship, clandestine delays (which some of us
have figured out eventually).

* Our lists are marked clearly as Unmoderated (most of them).

* I say this is deceptive.

* I say this deception by the Debian project is wrong, inappropriate
and casts a quite negative light on the project and its participants
who by their inaction and their silence tacitly consent to these
deceptions.

It is the deceptions I am personally most opposed to. I certainly also
have some very real concerns that Debian is now on a very slippery
slope, although I hold also to the perspective that sliding down that
slope as quickly as possible and as much as possible, would be the
best possible long-term learning experience for all of us (users and
developers) in the Debian project.


And! NO apologies from me to the PC (Politically-Correct) crowd (I
don't know or personally care who still holds such views) who sustain
that moderation is not censorship :
- apparently because moderation is before,
- or was that after, the event,
- or that moderation might mean only change some words (not rewrite?
or cut out parts?)
- or maybe also just remove whole posts
- or sorry I also meant ban particular subscribers altogether,
- so therefore its only "moderation" and entirely acceptable, and is
not "censorship".

Well whatever the firetruck that distinction is escapes ME!
Seriously! You have to be kidding. Or deluded.
(Now PC'ers, please bite, and come to the conversation and make us all
proud - please, do convice us all how moderation in all its variations
has nothing to do with censorship.)

The problem I, and others including Scott have, is that this
censorship to date has been clandestine - only known to those who know
about it, and figured out by those who figured it out or experienced
it.


A regime, a set of rules, is the right of the creator of a thing, to
put in place regarding that thing. For example the listmasters created
the debian-user mailing list.

But, what I find highly objectionable in the most vehement terms I
could use, is a clandestine, non-published censorship regime. In fact
one which people are specifically and in certain terms lead to believe
does NOT exist ("This list is unmoderated"), when in fact it clearly
and certainly does exist!

This is NOT OK BY ME!

This is NOT OK for the Debian Project, to treat its community (we
non-developers, who are users and/ or subscribers to the Debian
Project mailing lists) in this way!

This is NOT OK for the Debian Developers to treat us "mere users" and
"mere list subscribers" in this way!! <rant>Take your class separation
and elitist shirtload of disenfranchisement and get a clue - i.e.
figure out how to treat your fellow humans (we 'mere' users) with
decency!</rant>


Now, there have been some absolutely abhorrent, phsycologically
violent (IANAPsychologist sorry) and totally unacceptable
communications (emails, IRCs too AIUI) to the Debian Project
communication infrastructure (mailing lists etc).
And these "terrorists" (analogy, please, don't get uptight about
anologies, please) (and I believe it's just one particular
unfortunately unbalanced person who was trolling in the last month or
so) are what has prompted the "national security letter" (proposed
Debian Policy update, please, analogy, don't worry about the analogy)
to formalise the clandestine censorship that has been occuring.

So we, the Debian Community, are quite possibly going to get some
(debian policy) legislation which formalises politeness and formalises
clandestine censorship (some example words in the proposed policy
include for example ~ 'use your good judgement/common sense' (when
censoring)).


As I have said before (it's a famous quote, but not famous enough for
me to remember the originator), the road to hell is paved with good
intentions.

So. This is why I've been saying some of the things I've been saying
on debian-user and offlist.


I hereby consent to any of my own off-list posts specifically
regarding this censorship and debian policy update matter, to be
posted here, but I can't speak for the others who we engaged each
other off list - SO, if you do cut and paste any of the offlist emails
PLEASE be very careful to NOT include others who may not or do not
consent to their offlist emails being posted here, onlist. I think
Scott has already consented, but please keep in mind the current list
guidelines (offlist messages stay offlist) - and use particular
conservatism in this regard, and double check if uncertain. Those who
do not consent will likely thank you :)

In case it is not clear, I wholeheartedly encourage and support
respect and polite and courteous communication, as well as efforts to
encourage and support polite and courteous communication.

I also encourage people to be frank and get to the point.

I also encourage people to have thick skins, especially when online,
and assume good faith in each other.

If you are feeling a bit sensitive and/ or 'unfairly' spoken to in an
email to one of our lists, perhaps ask offlist the person who's
communication triggered your feelings, whether they meant to attack or
upset or be mean, before going public with your sensitivities. In
almost all cases, you will be seen in a positive light if you do not
respond (at least publicly) to antagonistic or demeaning online
communications.

And if you have the good grace to be at peace and come back with a
gentle and poignant and succinct take-down to someone who is at least
borderline trolling, then you will be seen in an even better light :)

Let's be caring towards each other and work towards creating _our_
debian-user (and other) communities as the best we can imagine them to
be...

On 3/16/14, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf at alice-dsl.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2014-03-15 at 17:48 -0400, Ric Moore wrote:
>> On 03/15/2014 05:35 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> > On Sat, 2014-03-15 at 12:36 -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
>> >> Is there a chance I could be included?
>> >
>> > :D

Well, here it is.

We are now officially on-list :)

Anyone and everyone is of course welcome to jump on in. Our original
offlist intention was to debate the nature and usefulness of my email,
but we could not help ourselves but jump into the actual conversation.
At least it has given me some time to think and valuable feedback to
approach this conversation in a (hopefully :) more palatable way -
since I'm usually feeling cheeky, I'll post my legalese offlist email
for those who like to laugh at me - hopefully I shall continue to
laugh with you :)


>> > Until now we aren't an exclusive club for special people ;).

Indeed, we are a non-exclusive club of special people. The people in
the debian community. I am a 'mere' user, and I am a Debian community
member, full fledged! :)


>> > Perhaps we should continue at Debian OT.

As noted above, thank you Ralph.


>> > I Bcc'ed to the users of our secret circle :D.
>> > Are you ready for the fraternity pledging :D?

This type of comment always makes me remember that Simpsons episode
where Homer gets inducted into a secret brotherhood society.


>> I could restore my "Computer Voodoo" packaging of Computer Voodoo
>> Chicken Feet for the cause. You just wave one and those who oppose you
>> disappear and computer problems sort themselves out. I'm waving one
>> right now! :) ....#$%%^^&* <disconnect> ...
>
> Zenaan carefully opened a thread off-list. I suspect everybody,
> especially Zenaan would like to continue at Debian Off-topic list :).
>
> Zenaan's intention is the opposite of excluding folks.

Indeed.

> Seemingly Zenaan was carefully :), respect :).

Thanks again, regards to all,
Zenaan