Bug#535957: clive: --format switch doesn't work anymore

Gerfried Fuchs rhonda at deb.at
Tue Jul 14 10:58:32 UTC 2009


	Hi!

 I don't know what mailer you use - but can you please tell it to not
break threads? It neither sets In-Reply-To nor References which makes it
look a bit imature and breaks threading in proper mail clients ...
Thanks. :)

* Toni Gundogdu <legatvs at gmail.com> [2009-07-14 00:53:09 CEST]:
> Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
> > this ever changing thing with every single release and
> > being incompatible with every version before is [...]
> 
> That's 15 releases and about six months between 2.0.0 and 2.1.14 alone.
> So what you are saying in the above quote is exaggeration.

 Multiple (at least noticed two, and it isn't important enough for me to
dig around for further) intentional brekages involving users to have to
dig around within six months isn't much of a exaggeration, IMNSHO.

> > When I did try -f fmt18 it worked, also with -f best -- both did
> > get me mp4. Why doesn't -f mp4 give me mp4 anymore?
> 
> I'm assuming we are talking about the Youtube support. Google still
> supports mp4.

 As does youtube, but I guess you mean a different thing when you say
mp4.

> We now use the same IDs that Youtube does instead of the aliases
> that were usually only missleading. In the long run this is best
> for everyone, only the users but whoever may try to fix the support.

 You think users having to dig up what fmt18 and fmt22 might find it
less confusing? Sorry, but I can't disagree stronger here ...

> For example, fmt18 and fmt22 are both mp4 formats, so we would
> see reports from some users saying that mp4 download no longer
> works

 Why doesn't clive want to help the users then and obscure it even
further with fmt22, fmt18 and whatsnot? And like noticed yesterday, why
did I receive a mono flv even with -f best when -f fmt18 gave me a mp4
with stereo sound? Sorry, that's not what I call "best" and it's highly
inconvenient for the users to have dig up what formats there might be
now and there. That's why they use a tool like this and not extract the
download URL themself from the html source, mind you.

> -- when it fact it did, but resulted in lower quality of
> mp4 when they used "-f mp4" while hoping to get the HD (fmt22)
> version of the video. The use of mp4_hd only seemed to confuse
> some users even further.

 So why doesn't mp4 strive for the best mp4 format available? Fulfilling
expectations is not what you are striving for it seems?

>   * Youtube uses fmtxx for its formats

 And it's a complexity that doesn't need to hit the users. IMHO.

>   * this makes debugging and finding a fix easier

 For debugging people usually offer debug switches.

>   * this means less confusion about the formats among users & devs

 I won't buy that, sorry.

>   * no need to read source code to figure out the aliases

 Need to read source code what fmt might be needed this day?

> This goes also along with the rest of the program design. We have been
> using host specific format IDs for Dailymotion for about year now.

 So you are saying that one needs to remember even which fmt number is
used for which service? Wow, that's really userfriendly indeed.

> With "-f best" you may have downloaded either one (fmt18 or fmt22 in
> this case), depending on which was listed as first (best) in the HTML.

 Received a flv, see above. :/

> > Sorry, I can just encourage everyone to switch to a different
> > product than clive
> 
> Well, that seems rather harsh. I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

 If you consider expressing ones feelings is harsh I feel sorry for you -
but that's what this whole issues that popped up in the last months made
me consider.

> I should probably point out that clive is not a product. If it was,
> I wouldn't be writing these emails.

 This sentence doesn't make any sence to me, but I guess you have your
reason to write that.

> Ryan Niebur wrote:
> > I agree fully [with Fuchs], having a wrapper script around clive that I've
> > had to update multiple times. at this point (despite me working on keeping
> > the clive package up to date...)
> 
> Well, whatever the case, whatever you decide to do, thanks for keeping up
> and making clive2 available for Debian users.

 I'm just not too convinced that it's really a service to Debian users -
I am worried about all the regressions the completely reworked config
and commandline handling brings with it when they upgrade at one point
from lenny to squeeze. To some degree this reminds me of the xmms ->
xmms2 changes, and I guess you know how much of a userbase and goodwill
it did cost them. Just like a xmms2 developer told me today:

#v+
<Eclipser> as I said, I don't care about users
<Eclipser> users are crap
#v-

 So long,
Rhonda





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