[Pkg-squeak-devel] [Scratch] Scratch in multiverse repository on Ubuntu 10.04 Lucid Lynx

Thu Feb 4 22:07:43 UTC 2010

On 04.02.2010, at 13:58, Amos Blanton wrote:
> Hi Bert,
> 
> First off - thanks for your help! I've submitted a question to the vm package in Ubuntu to see if it's likely be upgraded in time for Lucid feature freeze.
> 
> A few issues - perhaps you can point us in the right direction?
> 
> Scratch would depend only on /usr/bin/squeak
> 
> I can't seem to pass the necessary arguments through this script. inside it I found the following comment:
> #This script is for non-expert users to start Squeak easily.
> #If the available arguments to start the squeak virtual machine have
> #to be used, you should avoid using this script, and call the real 
> #virtual machine using squeakvm

That does not seem to match what I see at

http://squeakvm.org/svn/squeak/trunk/platforms/unix/cmake/squeak.in

Perhaps José put in a different script? I'm cc'ing him on the pkg-squeak-devel list.

I any case there must be something in /usr/bin you can depend on. I currently do not use either Debian or Ubuntu so I can't easily look myself.

- Bert -

> 
> Here is our startup script:
> /usr/bin/scratch_squeak_vm \
> -plugins /usr/lib/scratch/Plugins \  
> -vm-sound-PA \
> /usr/lib/scratch/Scratch.image "${@}"
> 
> scratch_squeak_vm is our bundled vm. If I can't replace it with /usr/bin/squeak I need a way to call the vm without having to know the version / subfolder location. Who would you recommend I contact about this one?
> 
> I spoke with John about the bundling / not bundling issues further. If we know the VM will be updated in time for Lucid, we can make it work with Scratch. If not, I guess we'll try to submit the bundled version to the Masters of the Universe and hope they will permit it.
> 
> Thanks, and once again, all apologies for my noobidity.
> 
> Amos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 3:11 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> wrote:
> On 02.02.2010, at 09:22, Amos Blanton wrote:
>> Thanks Bert - I found that as well that after digging a little more after my last message.
>> So - the Debian squeak-vm Bert mentioned seems to work well with Scratch. A few observations:
>> 
>> 1. The vm now wants plugin filenames to begin with so., so we'd have to do some minor changes in our package to rename the Scratch and Camera plugins.
> 
> I think it should still find plugins named differently (but I haven't looked at the code right now).
> 
>> 2. The pulse plugin that ships with the vm has spotty delayed / interrupted playback. Recording has same problem as the version of the pulse plugin we are currently using. When I fell back to our current release version of the pulse plugin, playback was fine and recording has the same problems as experienced earlier (same behavior as with bundled VM).
>> 
>> There is also a gstreamer (sound?) plugin, but it doesn't follow the same format as the others, so I couldn't figure out how test it. 
>> 
>> 3. The VM binary and plugins are installed in a subdirectory named after the squeak version: /usr/lib/squeak/3.11.3-2147/squeakvm
>> 
>> There doesn't seem to be a way to refer to the VM without knowing the whole path. Is this so a dependent piece of software can insist on a particular version of the VM?
> 
> Scratch would depend only on /usr/bin/squeak
> 
>> To make things work I had to copy the Scratch plugin and CameraPlugin to the same subdirectory. Of course, if Scratch and the vm are separate packages in Ubuntu, we won't be able to do this when the vm gets updated after Scratch has been installed. So now I think I see why Bert suggested we get the ScratchPlugin (and the CameraPlugin) into the squeak package.
> 
> That should be discussed with the squeak-vm maintainer.
> 
> - Bert -
> 
>> 
>> My apologies if the answers to some of these questions are obvious - I'm rather new to this process.
>> 
>> -Amos
>> 
>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de> wrote:
>> On 02.02.2010, at 07:37, Amos Blanton wrote:
>>> Hi John,
>>> 
>>> Here are a few reasons to lean towards using the vm from the repositories. Mako may have more.
>>> 
>>> 1. Architecture independence - we could support more architectures than i386. 
>>> 2. We can inherit improvements to sound plugins, etc. I've seen mention of a gstreamer plugin for Squeak that I'd love to try out to see if it might solve our recording problems.
>>> 3. The Ubuntu MOTU's (gatekeepers to the multi-verse repository we want to get into) will be more likely to accept the Scratch package because it conforms to recommended practices. Bundling your own VM is seen as bad form.
>>> 4. Bugs in the VM will be filed against the VM, and not Scratch.
>>> 
>>> Also, Bert mentioned:
>>> José just submitted the 3.11.3 squeak-vm to Debian:
>>> 
>>> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-squeak-devel/2010-January/000023.html
>>> 
>>> I think that should trickle down to Ubuntu in time, though I don't know the actual process.
>>> Mako - perhaps you know how easy / difficult this process is?
>>> 
>>> It'd be great if I could get a binary of the new VM to test with Scratch on Ubuntu. Where to find completed / built package or this latest source isn't clear to me. 
>>> 
>>> Amos
>> 
>> See "download" at
>> http://packages.debian.org/sid/squeak-vm
>> 
>> 
>> - Bert -
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 2010/2/2 John Maloney <jmaloney at media.mit.edu>
>>> Hi, Amos.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 1, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> So we'd like to submit a package to be included in it, ready or not, before that date. (We can hopefully submit fixes after that date, but the process gets trickier). Mako has agreed to sponsor it. He suggested, however, that we submit a version of the package that depends on the squeak-vm in the ubuntu repositories (1.3.9.8-3ubuntu3)instead of including its own VM (3.10 - 4 beta #1 dated Feb. 2009), which is how we've done it so far.
>>> 
>>> Even the latest VM does not include the Scratch-specific plugins yet. I started pushing for this a while ago but haven't spend much time myself on it. Would be good if you Scratch folks would work with the Squeak VM developers and packagers more closely.
>>> 
>>> It's easy to switch to using the Squeak-vm from the ubuntu repositories, but it introduces a new bug when Scratch is run under Compiz. It causes the Scratch cat and other sprites to be "see through" ( see attached image ) Note that it's possible to see text on windows underneath the Scratch window through the representations of the icons - but not clearly. Kind of an interesting bug!
>>> 
>>> I fixed that back in 2008. Was in the 3.10.4 release.
>>> 
>>> Hmm -- Bert's fix must have been after the 3.10 - 4 beta version that's in the current Ubuntu package.
>>> 
>>> It doesn't look like that package is being actively maintained. If it isn't, I don't think it makes sense for Scratch to depend on it.
>>> 
>>> But in any case, I'd rather continue to bundle our own VM with Scratch. There are pros and cons, of course, but if we bundle our own Squeak VM then we are not going to be surprised by having a new VM release break Scratch. And since Scratch is based on a version of Squeak that's about 10 years old, we don't need the very latest VM features.
>>> 
>>>        -- John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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