[med-svn] r13023 - in trunk/community: . interview
Andreas Tille
tille at alioth.debian.org
Sun Feb 17 10:26:35 UTC 2013
Author: tille
Date: 2013-02-17 10:26:35 +0000 (Sun, 17 Feb 2013)
New Revision: 13023
Added:
trunk/community/interview/
trunk/community/interview/interview_r.nair-a.tille.log
Log:
Commit interview log
Added: trunk/community/interview/interview_r.nair-a.tille.log
===================================================================
--- trunk/community/interview/interview_r.nair-a.tille.log (rev 0)
+++ trunk/community/interview/interview_r.nair-a.tille.log 2013-02-17 10:26:35 UTC (rev 13023)
@@ -0,0 +1,299 @@
+Interview between Rajeev Nair <rajeevisonline at gmail.com> (RN) and
+Andreas Tille <tille at debian.org (AT) at So, 17.02.2013
+
+RN: Hi Andreas are you free now?
+AT: Fine for me to talk right now
+RN: ok
+ great
+ ok my first question
+ what is debian pure blends..how is it different from a debian fork or custom distribution?
+AT: Short answer: It is by no means a fork neither it is any custom distribution.
+ It is pure Debian
+ Just adapted to special needs of specific users
+ Please have a look at the doc
+ http://blends.alioth.debian.org/blends/
+RN: I did go through it...my question is can you actually download a debian pure blend
+ as an iso image
+AT: Well, for Debian Med nobody so far has done the work to create some iso image containing this part of Debian.
+ In the Debian Edu case there is a separate release called "SkoleLinux" which can be installed in schools.
+ If you want to have Debian Med you should simply install the metapackages named med-*
+ In principle I would be happy to care for such dedicated images but nobody did the needed work so far.
+RN: yes I think too that it would be a good thing
+AT: What would you personally expect from such ISO image (just for the sake of interest)
+RN: good for doctors etc. who dont know too much linux
+AT: Do you expect that doctors in their practice should maintain their computers themself?
+RN: a complete install setup for sever and desktop and out of the box apps like freemed, gnumed etc.
+ not completely but just easier so to maintain
+AT: I would like to contradict here
+ Doctors are specialists in healing people but not in maintaining computers.
+ Health care is too important to let non-specialists fiddle with their IT
+ You might like to have a look at my talk at LSM
+ http://people.debian.org/~tille/talks/20120711_vista-in-debian/index_en.html
+ There is video and the slides
+ Slide 26 of 29 is explicitely handling this idea
+RN: I will look into it
+ thanks for the info
+AT: As you might have seen Debian Med has a large part of Bioinformatics which is also a part of health care (not so visible for the patient but in wet labs is done a lot of stuff for your health as well)
+ So installing some clusters for gene sequencing software quite simply makes way more sense to use dedicated ISO images
+ This could be automated easily
+ However, installing plain Debian plus the dedicated metapackage is only one more command line for a bioinformatican ... and those people usually know how to do this.
+RN: so it is something like apt-get install med-* in debian right?
+AT: Yes.
+ Biologists just will say
+ apt-get install med-bio
+ or if they want to develop biological applications they say
+ apt-get install med-bio-dev
+RN: do we have to add an ppa's?
+AT: No, not at all. That's the point in having pure Debian (as I said in the beginning)
+ If you have Debian than you have Debian Med
+ Debian Med (as other Blends) could be considered specific work groups
+RN: ok another question will it actually work on ubuntu?
+ because ubuntu is more commonly in use these days
+AT: Ubuntu takes over all packages from Debian as you know. Because this is an automatic process it simply takes over the complete work of Debian Med and as far as I know (I never tested it) everything should work nicely on Ubuntu.
+ That's one of the huge advantages to stay completely inside Debian - a fork / custom distribution would not have this feature.
+RN: yeah I agree but the driver support is better in ubuntu atleast is better?
+AT: Well, the medical software is more or less independend from any drivers - so it works nicely inside Debian and Ubuntu
+ My answer above was not about Debian versus Ubuntu
+RN: ok
+ I am a huge fan of debian as well
+AT: It was about creating all stuff right into Debian to let all derivatives from Debian (including Ubuntu) profit from our work.
+RN: I remember spending money to actually get debian when sarge came out it was simply awesome
+AT: :-)
+ I do not see any point in Debian - Ubuntu flamewars. I'm just a Debian developer because it was there in the first place (I'm DD since 1998) and I stayed there. Debian Med started in 2002.
+ I never had any reason to change to something else but if somebody profits from my Debian Med work via some Debian derivative (Ubuntu, Linux Mint, whatever) that's perfectly fine.
+ There is actually BioLinux
+ http://nebc.nerc.ac.uk/tools/bio-linux/bio-linux-7-info
+ which derives from Ubuntu and we are working closely together to complete the set of packages they are using
+RN: yes I heard about biolinux..didnt try it out
+ But Debian-med looks better for now
+AT: It is probably not about better or worse.
+ As I said we are working together.
+RN: ok
+AT: BioLinux has some specific users in BioInformatics with specific needs who get some support
+ We try to make sure that everything that is needed for BioLinux will be available right inside Debian.
+ These packages will migrate to Ubuntu
+ Then BioLinux does some adaptations which are considered nice by their users.
+AT: I could imagine that these adaptations could be done right into Debian as well and we try to make their work / the diff they need to create as small as possible.
+ Finally we want to make sure that as less work as possible needs to be done twice.
+RN: ok
+RN: back to Debian-med again...does it automatically install all the packages marked in yellow on the site?
+ or just the dependencies?
+AT: No. Unfortunately these packages are not yet ready.
+ The green packages are inside Debian.
+ They can be installed.
+ The yellow packages are our current work.
+RN: yes but going ahead we will be having those packages as well?
+AT: Yes.
+ However, there is no guarantee how fast we might proceed
+ Some packages are more or less simple but for the VistA package
+ http://debian-med.alioth.debian.org/tasks/his#vista
+ this requires a huge lot of work
+ It is on our todo list since the start of Debian Med
+ Since last year we made a really big step regarding getting the precondition fis-gtm
+ We might be close to a first upload of fis-gtm in spring 2013
+ Once this is done a vista package comes way closer.
+RN: can you compile Vista from source as of now?
+AT: Well, I could imaginge that you can VistA after having build fis-gtm from the packaging stuff.
+ I'm personally no real expert for VistA
+ The thing is: we strongly depend from upstream expertise.
+RN: but packages like freemed and gnuhealth are working fine..
+AT: The big step foreward last year was because upstream became involved strongly into the packaging.
+ (I'll continue vista topic and answer gnumed next)
+ Another important idea of Debian Med is to bring together upstream and users (kind of missing link between those parties)
+AT: Last year I started the "Mentoring of Month" effort to do some formalised education for upstream developers how to learn Debian packaging.
+ http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/MoM
+ Upstream knows best where to install what file and how to test - if we teach and help them in the packaging we can guarantee that the packages are properly built.
+ So you see the Blends idea goes a bit further than simply adding packages to the Debian pool but rather create strong links between all involved parties.
+RN: by upstream therefore you mean IT specialists working in healthcare?
+ or do you mean researchers?
+AT: Upstream are the authors of the software we are packaging
+ That's Debian "slang"
+RN: ok
+ got it now
+AT: BTW, in biology upstream authors are quite frequently researchers and to reward their effort we mention their publications on our web pages - just look here
+ http://debian-med.alioth.debian.org/tasks/bio
+ So back to gnumed and freemedforms
+ Both are systems to manage single doctors practice.
+ You see that more of these are in our focus but the work is actually not that much progressed
+ (unfortunately)
+ Gnumed resides since a long time inside Debian
+ I had strong personal contact to the authors (they also live in Germany like me.)
+ Freemedforms packages were created last years
+ In this case also the upstream author was heavily involved and finalised the packaging under the help of the Debian Med team.
+ BTW, to support my first point about the simple installation by a doctor.
+ If a doctor simply installs med-practice on his system he will end up with two "competing" systems.
+ That's fine for evaluating the systems and having a look etc.
+ However, for real work he needs to pick one.
+ So it makes perfectly sense to have some support company who just uses our preparation in Debian Med to install the computer of the doctor
+ He gets support and just the software he might want to use.
+RN: ok but there is a problem when it comes to private practice right..if he wants to maintain records
+ do you recommend that he must have an IT specialist to help him?
+AT: Yes, definitely (that's basically the content of slide 26/29 in my talk at LSM - see link above)
+RN: ok
+AT: BTW, that's also the case for proprietary programs
+ Free Software will not change this principle
+RN: ok software remains free but you always pay for support
+AT: yes, that's the point
+RN: what do you think about competing projects like Opensuse medical...I read somewhere that they merely copied debian-med as it is...
+AT: I would like to support any such project because I do not see any real competion here
+ We are all working for free software.
+RN: ok
+AT: So I'm subscribed to Fedora medical SIG mailing list and Opensuse medical list
+ I also try to give hints how things can be done.
+ However, there is no visible work going on on opensuse medical
+RN: yes I noticed that
+ it says page not found for the gallery
+AT: In my talk at FOSDEM I was refering to something like
+ http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Medical_packaging_bio
+ It is a simple 1:1 copy of med-bio at some random point in time
+ I simply regard this stupid for one reason:
+ If users stumble upon this page they see something and want to use it.
+ Finally they will realise that there is actually nothing they could use.
+ This leads to frustration about Free Software because of stupid advertising of nothing.
+ It creates bad feelings about any Free Software
+RN: ok
+AT: In case they might stumble about Debian Med pages later on they think: Well, I have seen something like this and it was nothing
+ So pages like this do not help in the end.
+RN: but free software has come a long way with so many packages
+ ok
+AT: Yes. But you know users might come from some random site and will not know so much. If their first entry point is a failure they might stay away for years
+ So I'm very carefully about advertising wrong things.
+RN: ok
+AT: In the same line I do not blindly advertise Debian Med to any doctors I know.
+ I'm not a IT support company and I personally can not do support for them
+ But support is definitely needed
+ As long as there is no professional support I should not drag people into this.
+RN: but dont you think its about time more people got to know about this blend?
+ by way of articles etc.
+AT: Yes
+ You are right it is time to let people know.
+ But it is also time to let the right people know
+RN: totally
+AT: There should be IT support companies know that they could make a fortune delivering Debian Med to doctors
+ They could get it for free and they could share the money they make with Debian Med (paying for meetings etc.)
+RN: And its affordable for the doctors as well
+AT: Sure - they will save the licensing costs
+RN: yes
+ Actually I was thinking this looks good as an interview.
+ already
+AT: And we should also make sure that doctors will understand this and will ask the support company to adjust their price accordingly
+RN: yes that will definitely come about
+AT: Doctors should understand what Free Software means
+RN: yes
+AT: Any other question?
+RN: yes there is...see I could go ahead and publish this as an interview..
+ but I wouldnt have the expertise or background that you have
+AT: Yes, you can publish everything.
+ As I told you yesterday I also would like to copy this as is to Debian Med mailing list.
+ I will put you in CC when I write the mail.
+RN: ok
+ sure
+ but theres one more thing...
+AT: what else?
+RN: see people in India always like to read articles coming out from the west
+ particularly written from the west..where most of the research goes on..
+AT: I wished research in India would get some better credit in its own country ...
+RN: we have had a lot of articles written by people from different parts of India
+ yes..I think in India it lacks the funding and interest..but its coming up
+AT: good
+RN: but it would be really great if you could write an article for us...
+ along the lines of free software, debian med and affordability and need for support from IT specialists etc.
+ I could write but I am not an authority on it..
+AT: This would be feasible and there are some articles about Debian Med we have created before.
+ We could try something on the line of this interview and we usually work together on articles in VCS (formerly SVN, we are in process to switch to Git)
+ I would really welcome if you would check out the work and would commit your own part of the article
+RN: I will do that but you get the picture right
+AT: This would have the advantage that you know best what might be interesting for the audience
+RN: it would be great for our magazine to have your photo and article for our magazine because you are an expert on the subject
+AT: No problem
+RN: I'll put some inputs from my end as well but it would be just better if it went in your name
+ some freshness for the magazine
+ in a software perspective
+AT: Fine for me - but it might be some teamwork of the Debian Med team and I would like to give credit to all authors (as we did in the past)
+RN: ok as you wish
+AT: We will see how it works and how other people will be involved
+RN: it is a good idea to include their names as well at the end
+ ok
+AT: ... something like this.
+RN: once again it is a privilege to talk to you
+AT: :-)
+ That's to much of honor.
+RN: no you deserve it
+AT: I always like to talk to people about Debian Med
+RN: I think many times that people fail to recognize the work that goes into making free software as well because these days they are as good or even better than their commercial counterparts
+ people should be donating more money to the cause
+ after all theres nothing else in this world that is truly free
+ free to own, modify and distribute
+AT: I guess this is similar to the Coca Cola effect: It most probably does not taste better or worse than any comparable soft drink. But there is a lot of advertising around and so people believe it is way better.
+ In the same sense there is a lot of advertising about proprietary software
+RN: yes but I believe now debian-med is getting popular as well
+AT: :-)
+RN: and that is a very good thing
+AT: Now you simply need to make 1 billion people in India believe. :-)
+RN: thats the idea
+ at least all the people subscribed to our magazine would
+AT: In Debian slang this is called "the last final step to world domination" ;-)
+RN: and thats always in a good sense
+ debian for peace
+AT: :-)
+ BTW, we will have the next team meeting next weekend:
+ http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/Meeting/Kiel2013
+ I will try to work on an article when traveling
+RN: ok that would be great
+ it would be a nice incentive for doctors etc.
+AT: I hope so
+RN: btw our magazine is essentially for the layman as well
+ so they will be able to understand too
+ btw does debian-med have any packages that patients can use?
+AT: Yes
+ http://debian-med.alioth.debian.org/tasks/tools
+ pcalendar
+ workrave
+ quitcount
+ etc.
+RN: ok
+ maybe we can focus on that as well...
+AT: Yep.
+RN: so it makes for a wholesome article for everyone..
+AT: Perhaps you might like to create some small skeleton
+RN: and particular advantage to healthcare systems
+ I could do that but would that be ok with you?
+AT: Sure. That would be pretty helpful!
+RN: no i don't think my input would be anywhere as good as yours..but I will still try
+AT: While you consider me an expert in Debian Med I'm by far no expert in writing a magazine article. Here you are the expert and any help is welcome
+RN: ok
+ but you're presentations are pretty good
+AT: Thanks
+RN: I saw the video where you spoke of 'bike shedding'
+ it was light hearted and good
+ very informative
+AT: seems the lates FOSDEM video ...
+RN: yes
+ you spoke about initial problems with the name etc..
+AT: yes
+RN: must see the whole video still
+ I have a slow internet connection thats the problem
+ but it will be the first thing I do to finish downloading it
+ to see it completely
+AT: On the other hand if you say the presentation is pretty good: I always try to put the focus on explaining that a Blend is no fork / custom derivative.
+ However, your first question in the interview was exactly this.
+ I think you understand it now
+RN: yes I do
+AT: But I really hoped that people understand it right from the presentation
+ In previous presentations I experienced that this was the first question in the QA part ...
+ For me the idea is very straightforeward to stay inside Debian but to my big astonishment people very frequently have big problems to get this idea
+RN: yeah its always good to maintain the same OS
+ less work for the developers as well
+ shall we talk about the rest later
+ I am really sorry Ive got to go
+AT: Sure this is what I tried to explain. I remember four years ago when I was talking about "Debian Science"
+ After my talk the first question was: "Why do you creating a fork? That's not needed!"
+ well, for sure that's not needed - and that was my talk about ...
+RN: Andreas I ll be back in fifteen minutes..
+AT: Yes, we can continue the interview later
+RN: ok
+ thank you for your time
+ bye
+ take care
+AT: bye
+
More information about the debian-med-commit
mailing list